Putting WordPress to Work
Carrie: Howdy everybody! Welcome back to another episode of officehours.fm. Today I am chatting with Pamela Wilson. She is the founder of Big Brand System and the author of Master Content Marketing, which we’re going to be talking about. You may have heard Pamela’s name before. She is just coming off a good long stint with Copyblogger media. She’s got some exciting new adventures that we’re going to be talking about today. How are you, Pamela?
Pamela: I am doing great. I cannot wait to have this conversation. I’ve been looking forward to it.
Carrie: Oh my gosh! Just so people know, we were already having a fantastic conversation. We pretty much hit the record button so that we can actually get all this good conversation into the podcast. Pamela? It’s always such a great pleasure to chat with you. Your experience in marketing, content marketing, and education is vast. As a matter of fact, you were just saying you’ve been doing this for 25 years now.
Pamela: I am just about to celebrate. When this airs actually I will be in the middle of a party celebrating 25 years in business, which amazes me. I started my business when my son was about to be born and he is about to have his 25th birthday. This is how I know it’s true. I started out as a publication designer doing a lot of print publication magazines and newsletters for really big organizations like the United States Golf Association; recognizable organizations like this. I did a newsletter for them that they would send out to their 700,000 members. It was content marketing before it was online, right? I have had a long career and have been so glad that I chose the career I have. It’s morphed from being all about design into being a lot about writing nowadays. But it’s all marketing. That’s kind of the thread that weaves through everything. It’s marketing.
Carrie: You know? So many small business owners and folks that listen to this podcast are great at our craft and what we do. But when it comes to marketing ourselves, that’s not out strong suit. So I would love to talk to you about some practical ways that a solopreneur or freelancer could use content marketing to differentiate themselves in the market.
Pamela: Definitely. I think what is so interesting about the time we’re living in right now is that it used to be that to market your business you had to basically plunk down tens of thousands of dollars and put an agency on retainer so that they could do the marketing work for you. Nowadays there are so many tools from WordPress tools (which you teach and talk about a lot) which allow you to put together your own website. If you want to get really fancy then you may have to bring in help. But you can put together the basics all by yourself. It’s the same thing with marketing graphics. With content marketing, we have tools available to us now that put the power in our own hands. So it doesn’t belong to these professionals that want to charge you a lot of money to do work that they’re never going to be as passionate about as you are. They’re being paid to promote your business but they’re never as passionate as you are about your own business. That’s why I have really focused on reaching out to people who have their own thing and they are feeling maybe a little bit invisible. They’re not being seen. Their competitors are just eating their lunches because they are much more visible than they are. They want to get out there, really make a mark and make themselves memorable. They can do it. They’re a lot of tools that they can use. You have to know what to do with those tools. That’s kind of where Big Brand System comes in. Those are the kinds of things that I talk about.
Carrie: Pamela? Over at your website bigbrandsystem.com you’ve got some excellent free resources that folks can use to do exactly what you’re just talking about, so creating a plan for your brand and your marketing toolkit. Are those processes that you went through yourself and found that they were repeatable?
Pamela: So it’s really interesting because I’m in the process of doing a website update right now. By the time this airs, what will be on my site might be a little bit different than what you are I are looking right now. What I am doing going forward is I’m encouraging people to think about this brand plan that has three steps. The first step is where you’re just kind of in discovery mode. First of all, you are discovering who you want to talk to, who you’re trying to reach out and target, who your ideal customer is and getting to know them. Then it’s a little bit like how do you want to show up for that person? That’s where I talk about brand personality. What kind of voice do you want to use? Do you think your brand needs to be more formal or is it more casual? Is it kind of legalistic and professional or is it friendly and down to earth? Those are the kinds of questions you have to ask at the discovery stage. Then you have this really big stage that happens after you have those things figured out (those discovery things) which I call the build stage. This is where you start to bring together visual elements like your colors, your fonts, your logo, and your image style for example. Then address your verbal elements like your business name, your tagline, and the words that you use to describe your offer, your brand and what you do for people. That’s the verbal part of your brand. When you combine those two elements the visual brand and the verbal brand. You have a really powerful package of elements that are working to make your business more memorable.
Carrie: Ok. We’ve got the combining of that first and second step. Then there is a what comes next?
Pamela: Right. So the third step is after you’ve discovered who you want to talk to and how you want to talk to them, you have built a brand of brand elements, verbal elements and visual elements that make your business more memorable. At that point, you start profiting from this brand you have put together. This is where content marketing comes into play. Content marketing is not (as you know) a one and done thing. It’s something that you commit to long-term and you do over time. It makes a lot more sense when you start that content marketing step after you have figured out these things about how you want to show up in the world, who you want to reach, how you want to show up and how you’re going to present yourself. Once you have all of that in place then content marketing is easy. You can explore things like social media ads, social media posts, offering webinars, starting a podcast (like this one) building online products and doing off-line networking. All of those things are ongoing efforts that will help you to profit from the brand that you have created. Does that make sense?
Carrie: Yes. I love it! I wish I had this conversation with you a number of years ago. I kind of did it backwards. I created like shotgun style content on a variety of topics and then came down to that process of defining what my personal brand is. You’re absolutely right. It does help and makes it so much easier to put together a content marketing plan. I’m at the point where I’m needing to do audits on my site to get rid of content that doesn’t really support my personal brand if that make sense.
Pamela: It totally does. It’s so interesting. Now that I’m focused on Big Brand System one of the things that I ended up booking this very week that you and I are talking about…I booked two different people who asked me if I would do site audits for them. I think a lot of us are in a position where we have put together something and we’ve added layer after layer to it. We step back at a certain point and say “You know what?” My message is not clear anymore. People don’t know what I’m about at this point. It’s confusing. Bringing in someone from the outside can be very helpful. The thing about this brand plan is that you really can kind of reverse engineer it. I tried to design the steps so that if you are at the profit stage but you’re realizing that you’re kind of weak in the discovery items, you can go back and reinforce those. Then everything you do in the profit stage is going to work better because you’ve done that discovery work. In a perfect world, you come across this material at the very beginning of the process. You go 1…2…3…and you work your way through it. We don’t live in that that world, so it’s ok if you start at any point in the process and just kind of reinforce that. Whatever you do after that is just going to be more effective.
Carrie: Thanks for hitting on that point. So for folks who are listening to this, if you have been out there a while it’s never too late to circle back around and go through the process that you’re talking about. Pamela? Let’s talk about your book. First, congratulations! That’s a huge deal.
Pamela: Thank you. It’s a huge project writing a book. It’s got a lot of moving parts. My situation was interesting because at the time that I wrote the book I was working more than full-time hours for Rainmaker Digital. I was working very long weeks. I had to find a way to wedge in the time to get this done in my schedule. I was very lucky. Jeff Goins, who is here in Nashville where I live, volunteered to coach me through writing my first book. We did it in podcast form. We created this podcast called ZerotoBook.fm. If anyone is curious or would like to know more about what it takes to put a book together and would like to hear a newbie ask all the embarrassing newbie questions and get them answered by somebody who has been around the block a few times, that would be our podcast. That’s basically what we did. He was tremendously helpful. Every couple of weeks we would get together. It was a very casual conversation. I’d be like Jeff! I’m doing this and it seems difficult. What am I doing wrong? I need to look for an editor. What should I be looking for? What’s the deal with print on demand? How does that work? The very first podcast was…should I go with a traditional publisher or should I self-publish? That’s the seminal question that you have to answer at the very beginning. That’s episode 1 where we basically answer that question.
Carrie: That’s awesome! I need to go listen to all of those episodes. I’m working on a book with a colleague with all the same questions you just brought up and a million more are going through my mind. Thank you for that. I’ll include a link to that over in the show notes for this episode so folks can follow up on that. So with the book itself, the process was like birthing a new product? What is the actual content of Mastering Content Marketing?
Pamela: The full title is a mouthful but I’m going to take a deep breath so I can fit it into one breath. Here we go. Master Content Marketing, A Simple Strategy to Cure the Blank Page Blues and Attract a Profitable Audience. You have to breathe at the end because you run out of breath.
Carrie: You did it!
Pamela: I know. It’s a super long title. Here’s the back-story behind this book. My background is design. I went for many decades really running my design studio and working with clients and helping them with their marketing. My solutions were the visual piece. It was not the writing. If I had a client who needed a copywriter, I would hire the writer and bring them into the project and then project manage the whole thing and do the visual piece of it. That’s how we got things done. I never did any writing myself. I had convinced myself that I was not capable of writing. I was like I’m not a writer. I’m a visual person. That’s just what I am. So fast forward to 2010. I start this Big Brand System website. I had found copyblogger and learned what content marketing was. I knew I wanted to use it to attract the audience that I wanted to attract to that site. I had to figure out how to do it. At the same time, I was still running my studio. I had two kids living at home who were actually in that stage of life where they were in their very busy high school years. They were starting to think about colleges. So there was college visiting happening in the middle of all that. It was just a very busy time in my life. I’m starting this new online business using content marketing so I didn’t have a lot of time. So what I did…I’ve mentioned this to you so that you know I’m kind of a processes and systems person… I developed some systems around content marketing that worked really well. They made it more efficient. They made it more fun. I found that I could very reliably churn out pretty decent content marketing for a non-writer. It became so efficient that it got to the point that I reached out to the people at copyblogger and asked if I could write guest posts for them. I wrote a few posts which they published, which I was thrilled about. Then they asked me to write for them once a month. Having that efficient system helped me to be able to do that extra work at that time. It was great extra work that I was honored to do but it was on top of my current workload. Those systems and the processes that I went through (and even just like the mindset stuff) that’s what I put in my book. At the very beginning of the book, I if you are not a writer you’re in the right place because I’m not a writer either. Wait! Don’t go away. I became a writer. Don’t throw the book down at this point. I did become a writer but I wasn’t born a writer. I think a lot of people that are doing content marketing feel like that. They’re like I’m not going to be able to do this. I’m not a writer.
Carrie: Are all of those processes are in the book? That’s what you’re teaching?
Pamela: That is exactly what’s in the book. One of the things that I did is…first of all I took a piece of typical content marketing…effective content marketing and I broke it down into seven parts. So the heart of the book is really this section where I talk about what you need to do to write a good headline. I give you templates for headlines. Then I give you what you need to do to write a really engaging first sentence, how to write a really good introductory section, how to write subheads, how to write your main copy, how to summarize your piece of content (usually in just a sentence or two) but including some kind of summary which is something you may not have noticed before. Most really great content has some kind of summary toward the end. Then I present a call to action, which a lot of people just forget. They share their information and then he forgot to ask people to take the next step. I break down all of the sections where each one has it’s own chapter. I’m giving people who maybe don’t feel super confident as writers, guidance so that they can kind of master each of the sections. Layered on top of that is this process that I discovered basically out of necessity which is to break down the content creation process into several days. You do specific things on different days so that you’re not trying to marathon create a piece of content because it just doesn’t come out as well. It’s overwhelming. Then people feel like I don’t have four or five hours to devote to creating a piece of content, so I’ll do it next week or I’ll do it next week and it never happens, right? This is a way to make it more fun because you’re just doing a little piece of it every day. That’s also spelled out in the book.
Carrie: I need this.
Pamela: I was just going to say, do you find it difficult? I talk to a lot of people who feel like they’re on a treadmill with the content marketing stuff.
Carrie: It is so difficult. Part of it (like you just said) is going after the marathon post writing. So it’s like I got an idea or a topic for an article and I’ll jot that down. Then it’s like ok. What’s my SEO angle? How do I want this post to rank? Then I’m off scrolling around doing keyword research. Then I’m researching my topic. Before I even picked up my pencil, I’ve blown an hour just kind of tooling around. Once I get into it, I blurt out these amazing 1 to 3 paragraphs. Then I’m like…ugh… is that all I have to say about that? I like the idea of separating out those tasks and not feeling like you’ve got to do them all at once.
Pamela: I have discovered that if you approach it the right way, content marketing can actually feel like a creative act. It can feel a lot like writing a piece of music or creating a piece of art because there is a whole process to those things. Athletes use it too. Athletes, artists, and musicians typically have some kind of warm-up. They’re just like you said… tooling around…they don’t expect to get anything from it. So writers do things like free writing, an artist might do a little bit of sketching and musicians might just play something they’re very familiar where they might run up and down some scales. There is this process that creative people have been using for centuries. I think if we apply that to content marketing, take the pressure off of ourselves and see it as this creative act that needs to be nurtured for it to come out well. I think it can be really wonderful. That’s where the fun element comes into it. It feels less like a chore and more like this thing where you’re kind of rubbing your hands together saying I can’t wait to do some writing today. It’s going to be fun.
Carrie: I was going to say you got me excited to go create some content.
Pamela: I think it can be so much fun. You and I both like visuals and so there is also this visual element to content marketing. It’s the words but they are going to be on a screen and people will be consuming those words from the screen. One of the things that I talk about in the book is formatting and making sure that you add in those subheads, that you use short paragraphs, you use block quotes and bulleted lists. Things like that will break up your page and make it easier to skim and easier to consume. Then I talk about images. There’s only one chapter. I could probably write a book about images…I’m actually putting together a course about images because that’s the kind of thing that’s hard to write words around. It’s easier to just show. I’ll be doing something around that. Content marketing has those elements to it. It’s words and images together. That makes it this very creative thing. You can approach it that way with the element of this is fun and I’m going to make this cool thing, rather than feeling like we just have to churn out another piece of content, we should be thinking I am going to make something amazing here. It will be amazing to read, amazing to look at and it’s going to be standout. Especially today because there’s a lot of content out there.
Carrie: Oh my gosh! No doubt. Let’s scratch on that little bit. So with content marketing, there’s the marketing part of it. I’m so used to hearing content marketing as a phrase. I just think about it as being content but there’s that marketing. I know I’m sounding obvious, but bear with me Pamela. When there is so much content out there on the web, it’s that marketing piece that differentiates you. Would you say that’s…going back to our earlier conversation about brand…that is how you attract the person that you want?
Pamela: Right. The thing is you think about the content piece first. I actually think about the marketing piece first. That’s probably because of my background. Earlier in my career, the way marketing was done was that people pushed messages out at an unsuspecting audience whether they wanted them or not. Those messages were newspapers and magazines in their mailboxes. They had a stack of junk mail every day that they would have to sort through. There were billboards everywhere. Everywhere you turned you were being bombarded with these messages that were pushed out en masse to everyone. There wasn’t a whole lot of targeting. You could do a little bit of targeting with television commercials and radio but not a lot. It was mostly just we’re going to throw a bunch of messages out and a certain percentage of people will remember our message when it is time to buy. It was annoying. Marketing and advertising all kind of flowed together and it was very annoying. What I see now is we are still marketing. It’s still marketing. It’s just we’re marketing in a very different way. We are marketing by pulling people toward our businesses instead of pushing messages out to everyone. We now have this thing called the Internet, which people use to look up businesses and actively search for information rather than you having to push that information on them. They’re not even asking for it. That’s content. That is what content does. Content is there ready to inform and engage. If you’re lucky, it might entertain the people that you hope to eventually serve as customers. It’s just doing it in a way that’s helpful instead of being annoying. I wrote in the book, it just feels so much better to market like this because you kind of felt like you were annoying all the time. Now you can feel like I am being helpful. I’m still marketing but I’m coming from a place of trying to serve the people who I want to make my customers eventually. It just feels better.
Carrie: That is such a great point. Pamela? Is it ok if we go a little bit long?
Pamela: Yeah. It’s totally fine. I am all yours.
Carrie: Ok. We’re at the 30-minute mark but we haven’t even gotten to talk about teaching and education yet. Of course, your book is educating, but you also do online courses. The role that you were in with Rainmaker involved education. Can you share with your marketing background, where did education fall in the mix? How did it come along?
Pamela: It’s funny because I wanted to be a teacher when I was in high school. I went to high school in Texas. I don’t know if I ever told you that.
Carrie: No!
Pamela: I’m a Texas girl just like you. I just lost the accent.
Carrie: Giddy up!
Pamela: I know. While in my high school in Texas I was in the Future Teachers of America Club. I was convinced that this is what I wanted to do. My mother was kind of a closeted feminist; in retrospect I see this, right? So the thing is my mother grew up in a generation where women’s options were you could be a nurse, you could be a teacher or you could be a housewife. That was pretty much it. Honestly, she heard me talking about becoming a teacher and she was saying this is not what everyone has fought for. I never asked her for the back story…but she basically said you are creative and you like art. You have what it takes to make a living at that. That’s what you should do! You don’t have to be an art teacher. Why don’t you become an artist or a designer or someone who makes a living at that because you enjoy it? That was such good advice. Honestly, what I had envisioned for myself at the time was like teaching in an elementary school. I do not think that would’ve made me very happy. Good advice mom! But boo yah mom…I ended up teaching in the long run…20 to 25 years into my career, I ended up and spending most of my time teaching. I do love teaching. The thing about online teaching now is that you’re teaching adults. You’re not having to duck spitballs that are being sent to you, student pranks or any of those things. You basically have interested learners who are there because they want to improve themselves professionally. I love it! I love this version of teaching that I ended up kind of stumbling into. I am loving it. One of my favorite things is to take something that I know well and break it down into steps and processes so that people understand it. One of the best things that people have said to me is when you explain it, I get it. I never got it before but when you explained that I got it. I basically live for those moments. Then you have people (I’m sure you’ve experienced this too) that say you changed my professional life because of something you taught me. You changed my career. You changed my business. I was able to offer things that I couldn’t offer before because of what you taught me. That is amazing to me. It’s such a privilege.
Carrie: Oh my gosh! It’s really humbling. I’m not worthy to have that sort of impact on someone. I don’t know if you feel that way but it’s such wonderful fulfilling place to be where you’re operating in your strengths but also helping other people achieve their goals.
Pamela: I love it!
Carrie: You hinted earlier that you’re working on a course. What’s on tap for 2017? Will there be a lot of courses from Big Brand System?
Pamela: It’s going to be a mix I think. I also really enjoy working one-on-one with people and have done coaching all along. When I was with RainMaker Digital I had negotiated doing a little bit of coaching on the side. I have continued to do that. I am going to be doing more of that in 2017. I’m thinking up some different formats for that coaching that might be useful to people because I meet people who want to work very intensely. Then I meet others who want to work with me and then have some time to go off and do things and then work with me again for a little bit. They get some more feedback and go off and do things again. It’s almost like there’s two different paces. I’m trying to develop offers for both of those types of people. The thing is, with people wanted to work intensely, I couldn’t really serve them before. I didn’t have that kind of time to give to people, but now I do. I’m setting up something where people will be able to work with me intensely for a couple of weeks, get fast progress and then go forward. That’s going to be one thing. As you know, coaching is a relatively easy product to set up. I already have the pieces in place so that’s probably going to be the first thing out of the gate for me early in 2017. I am developing and I have an interest list for this product called the Image Lab. I can send you a link to the interest list page if you’d like to share that.
Carrie: Yeah.
Pamela: That is basically going to be a product that will show non-designers how to put together great looking web images that they can either use with their content marketing, use on social media, or both. We’ll be using some of these tools that are available today…Canva, PicMonkey…some of the ones that I’ve really enjoyed that are very accessible. They’re fantastic tools but if you don’t really know what to do with them you actually can end up creating things that don’t work. I’ll be getting into basic rules and doing some step-by-step of how to work through the steps to create some good-looking images. Always keep your brand in mind so what you create looks like it’s related and it comes from the same company.
Carrie: I have a feeling that will be very popular. At least it’s very needed.
Pamela: I have heard that. I’ve heard from people that they want that. I’ve had an image related product several years ago that did well but I ended up closing it down when I joined the team at Rainmaker Digital. I’m excited to come back on the market with something like that.
Carrie: Very cool. I’ve got a general business question. In terms of your coaching do you have an idea of what percentage of your time you want to spend with one-on-one versus doing some of your other things?
Pamela: That is a really good question. I have not thought that through yet. I probably don’t want to spend more than about 25% of my time on coaching. I really want to have a good mix. The other thing I’m considering is, I have had a couple of people approach me when I put the word out that I’m open to new possibilities right now. I have had some really interesting conversations with people. A couple of people I know are in this position where they have good income coming in and they just do not have time to do things themselves anymore. They need help. So I ran my own agency for decades. I’m considering for a select few clients setting up some kind of an agency model where I help them at this point. I can help them right now too. I can help them meet their graphic needs and their content needs. I would put together teams of people who will be good for their particular job, then supervise the whole process so everything stays on track and it all gets done. That’s another thing where I am trying to have an interesting mix in 2017. That will be part of what I offer but not all of it. I probably only want to help three or four people max with that kind of relationship. Those people would be on a retainer and we would set out what we would be doing for them every month. They would be able to count on our work which would be kind of cool.
Carrie: Definitely! I’m just going to keep on asking questions because you’ve got such good stuff coming out….until you tell me to shut up. So going back to a personal brand, you’ve got these different things going on. You’ve got a book, coaching, you’re writing and toolkits. You are present on the web in many formats if that’s the right word to use. How do you maintain a brand consistency through all of those different efforts?
Pamela: It’s interesting that you said personal brand. The way I have approached Big Brand System is not to make it a personal brand. I had to make a decision early on (all of us have to make this decision when we choose our URLs for our websites) you have yours with your name, which is awesome. I think it’s probably worked really well for the direction that you’ve gone in. I went in the direction of I’m going to give this a name that says what I want it to do. That’s why I ended up calling it Big Brand System. I have had a variety of taglines. One of the things that I teach is it’s great if you can find a brand name that more or less says what you’re going to be offering to people. But with taglines, those are not legal entities. You can switch up your tagline as needed. I have definitely taken advantage of that advice. I’m in an interesting place right now because as an author you do have to be a little bit more visible personally. People don’t really buy books from brands. They buy books from authors, right? There has definitely been a shift in the last six months or so. Up until then, it’s been about Big Brand System. You’ll see when you have a copy of my book in your hands that the book colors are directly from the Big Brand System (the typography and the whole thing). It is a product of Big Brands System even it has my name on it. I just want it all to look like it comes from the same organization.
Carrie: Gotcha. It has that visual consistency.
Pamela: Yeah. It has voice consistency as well. The way that I write on Big Brand System is very much like it’s just me talking to you. We’re not super formal around here. It’s just me talking you and we’re having a conversation. I definitely carry that through the book. There are a couple places in the book where I’m it’s just us here. Let’s just fess up what we’re really trying to do here. It’s fun. It’s fun to be able to develop some kind of voice and then carry it through to something else.
Carrie: Very cool. I noticed that there’s an audio version of your book and you are the narrator.
Pamela: I was. That was a lot of fun. It was hard for me to imagine hiring a narrator to read it because I wrote it so much with my own voice. I’m this weird person. When I write, I can hear myself saying the words, so I just couldn’t imagine hiring a narrator. Most people have been very happy. I got my first less than five star review just this morning. Somebody said that I had read it. This is the funniest thing about reviews. You just don’t know what people will say. I read my book. I am from Texas but I have lived most of my life in the Northeast. I was a little bit afraid that I had read through that book too fast. I finished all the recording. The audio person polished it all up. It was like six hours and 20 minutes. I’m looking at this going I can’t believe I got through the whole book in six hours and 20 minutes. I hope I didn’t rush it. I hope I didn’t speak too fast. I was trying to enunciate. I was a little bit afraid that it had gone too quickly. So I see the review this morning. This person said they were taking stars away because I had read it excruciatingly slow. (laughs) It was so funny. I was like really? That’s actually good feedback because I was worried about the opposite. They said put it on 1.5 on your player and it will be fine. I was thinking to myself that’s ok. It’s easy to make it faster. It’s easy to change the speed. That is such an easy thing to fix on your player…just make the narrator go faster. I listen to a lot of audiobooks. I have heard audiobooks where it seemed like the narrator was just plodding along. I always speed those up. Like I said, I tried to keep the reading kind of high energy. I thought I had rushed it. I didn’t rush it apparently. It was excruciatingly slow.
Carrie: Tomorrow you’ll get a review that says “that was fantastic but you really read it way too fast!”
Pamela: It was a little too rushed. Yeah.
Carrie: You just can’t please everybody.
Pamela: Honestly, I have been so lucky. It’s been all five-star reviews, so this is the first experience of something that is not a five-star review. It’s all good. It’s all good as long as you know that most people are pretty happy. Even if this guy thought I read it excruciatingly slow he found a solution. Good for him. That’s exciting.
Carrie: That’s a fantastic little tidbit. Pamela? I actually am going to let you get about your business. It was an absolute pleasure talking to you. Where’s the best place to have folks find you online?
Pamela: The best place to find me nowadays is bigbrandsystem.com I would love to have people visit over there. I had this brand plan that I would love to send them that explains the steps that we went over. I have a weekend Digest newsletter that people seem to love. It goes out on Saturday morning. It’s designed to be read while you’re sipping your coffee or tea on Saturday morning. There are lots of links, tips, advice and all of that. I’d love to have the people listening sign up for those things.
Carrie: Fantastic. Pamela? Thank you again for your time and sharing with my audience and me today. I’m wishing you incredible success. I’m looking forward to seeing what you do in 2017.
Pamela: Thank you so much, Carrie. Thanks for the opportunity.
Carrie: You bet! Bye!
