Putting WordPress to Work
Carrie: Howdy. Howdy. Welcome back to another episode of officehours.fm. I am very pleased today to introduce you to Sherry Walling. Sherry how you doing?
Sherry: I’m doing great. I’m happy to talk to you Carrie.
Carrie: I am so glad to have you on. For people who have not met you…I don’t even know if you can condense who you are and what you do because there’s like a million things. What’s the elevator pitch?
Sherry: The short version is that I’m a clinical psychologist. I have a long history of working in the psyche therapy world. I am also married to a serial entrepreneur named Rob Walling. We cohost a podcast together that kind of looks at the relationship between mental health and all things founder tech, entrepreneur related. I am sort of like a cross over psychologist that works a lot with technologists, founders and entrepreneurs.
Carrie: Well the whole reason I invited you on today was because I was just hoping to get a free half-hour therapy session.
Sherry: Sweet. Tell me all about your mother and your earliest most tragic memories.
Carrie: laughs. I’m not even going to release this episode. It’s just purely for me. I’m just kidding. So ZenFounder is your podcast. For everybody listening to this episode, I would highly encourage you to go check out ZenFounder.com. There are some great interviews over there. Sherry? I met you at CaboPress recently. You spearheaded a couple of sessions on mental health. You sort of opened the floor for people to come out and say what’s bothering them. What’s on your mind? That nothing is off limits. That openness created some great space for conversation. First are all (there are so many things to talk about). I’m talking and I really want to hear you talk. Let me finally to get to a question. What are some of the most common recurring themes that you see for entrepreneurs, for freelancers, for people that are just trying to run their business and running around like a chicken with their head off doing it?
Sherry: I think one of the things that I end up talking to people a lot about is isolation (especially for folks who are freelancing or who are essentially in their own work world and in their own head). They don’t necessarily have a team that they work with. If they are working with a team, they’re running the team. They just don’t have a lot of peer support or people who really understand the ins and outs of the work that they do. There are some great things about that. Obviously you can do what you want to do, move fast and make your own choices. I think on a more existential level it leaves people feeling a lot of loneliness, isolation and disconnection from other people. So I end up talking about that a lot with folks. I also talk a lot about anxiety. I think especially for freelancers or people who are working on their own, your work is all your responsibility. The success or failure is all on you. I think that leads to that sort of daily grind anxiety…the running around like a chicken with your head cut off that you mentioned. There is this deeper existential anxiety. What if I fail? What if my products don’t sell? What does that mean about who I am? What does that mean about my ability to contribute as a meaningful human being to the world? It so fascinating to be in the mental health world because they’re so many levels at which I get to talk to people. There is that basic Hey! How do I structure my day so that I’m more effective, all the way down to questions of identity and belonging? What makes life meaningful?
Carrie: Man! Let’s solve those problems in the next 26 minutes.
Sherry: Ready? Go!
Carrie: Ok. Here we go. I can’t even come close. The isolation thing you mentioned is huge. Even if you have a supportive partner or spouse (when they don’t really understand what it is you do) for myself at least, I end up talking to friends online. It sounds like made-up friends or something. With colleagues and peers online we do the same thing so there’s that common level of understanding. Do you think that is enough? That online connection piece or do you think that there needs to be the physical presence of someone? Does that make sense?
Sherry: Yeah. I think online relationships are real relationships. Those count. That’s a real support group.
Carrie: Ok.
Sherry: Your people are real people Carrie. I think for folks that do the same kind of work that you do can commiserate and help each other. That’s a great community. I think it’s also really important to have friends in your community where you live…in your neighborhood, in your city (whether or not they do what you do) to just have some people that you can gather with and share food and do those kinds of things. Yes. Online communities are great especially when they’re groups of freelancers who are sharing ideas and sharing support. I think there is something to that in human friendship that’s a nice balance point even if it’s with folks who don’t necessarily do the same work you do.
Carrie: I know there are a lot of us who are introverts. Something about programming attracts introverted characters, or people that are ok with being in front of their keyboards for long extensive periods of time without human contact. When you say online communities are awesome…I can “Amen” to that all day long. I’ve got some great relationships and real-life friendships that evolved from what started out as online relationships. For people who are shy or not really sure how to start engaging in online communities…any advice there or how to break in?
Sherry: That’s probably a question I might throw back at you. I know that there are some places to connect with other people whether that’s to join a mastermind group…a couple of my friends run a mastermind matchmaking website. It’s Mastermindjam where you can just say I want to be in a group. I want to have a group of people who are doing similar things to me. We can meet virtually once a week or once a month; whatever you want to do. There are other things like that. You can sign up and be part of a group that works for you. If it doesn’t, then you hang out for a little while and then move on. You can try to find a different group. You probably know more resources than I do in terms of assessing the WordPress space, especially for freelancers who are looking to connect. I know Brennan Dunn does a lot of connecting groups in the double your freelancing world.
Carrie: Yeah. I would consider myself introverted. You can have your online persona that’s a little bit more outgoing or isn’t quite a true reflection of your off-line persona. I don’t know what I’m revealing here. Anyway, even though I call myself an introvert, I don’t have a hard time online reaching out and engaging in relationships. I’m not sure that my advice would necessarily be helpful to someone else. It could be entirely false. No. I am just kidding.
Sherry: (laughing) I will save you here. I think a great way to start forming a relationship is to think of a couple of good questions to ask. If it’s about what somebody else is doing or somebody else’s work…it sort of neutralizes people. It gives them an opportunity to talk about themselves (which everybody loves). If you’re more introverted or an internally oriented person, it gives you material to respond to. So you’re not speaking into a void but you are responding to their answer to your question. I would encourage folks who are sort of having trouble getting started just to think of a couple of good questions, whether they’re technical questions, work questions or personal questions. Use that as a tool to help begin a conversation. That works in person as well.
Carrie: Well let the lesson be here Sherry don’t kick questions back to me. Thank you for jumping in and saving me on that one. So continuing on the thread of online relationships, sometimes people are TMI (totally too much information). Going back to my earlier comment about your online persona not matching your off-line persona, you can sort of paint this picture if you want people to think you are cool. Obviously, it’s better to not have a false persona, to be true and transparent but how much transparency is too much? When is it over sharing?
Sherry: Yeah. This is such an important question. I think there is so much value in being authentic and letting out some of your true self online, or in whatever relationships that you find yourself in. I do think that sometimes people are really unwise about how much they share. I guess they’re unwise because they’re just not protecting deeper parts of themselves. I mean trust and authenticity… those things exist on a continuum. There are only a few things that I share with a few select people in my whole life ever. Those are really important parts of me. They need to be protected. I’m not going to Tweet about them. I think being wise and discerning about what parts of you are available for public consumption and what parts of you are private to your own intimate circles in your life or just your own inner self.
Carrie: Yeah. I think there is validation that comes with how many likes or favorites did my post get or whatever. Those are all little feelings of good that happen when people react or respond or say “Oh gosh. I hope you’re all right”. I would venture to say those that are valuing too much the response of other people versus getting that validation somewhere else.
Sherry: I use social media. I like social media. I think we really have to be honest about what it is. It’s like a little mini pat on the back. It should not have power to kind of dictate your value as a person. So if you’re paying a lot of attention to how much feedback, re tweets, or little hearts that you get on your tweets or likes you get on Facebook, it’s nice but it it’s just not sufficient real human feedback that we all need at a deeper level.
Carrie: Let’s talk about listening skills. I was doing some writing on communicating with clients and some of those soft skills that are involved with active listening…Sherry? Maybe this is going to turn into a therapy session. I’ve always fancied myself a pretty good listener. Then it turns out I’m a terrible listener, especially with my husband who’s not listening to this podcast. What would you describe as active listening? It doesn’t have to be about my spouse and me. When you’re talking to clients or you’re at a WordCamp where there are 1000 people and you’re meeting them…how do you really focus, listen and not be distracted? Do you have any amazing tips there?
Sherry: That’s actually super hard for me at a WordCamp or at a conference where there is a lot of noise. So if this is a key conversation, then I might say let’s step out into the hall. It’s really loud in here. That’s really important when the conversation is important. You just have to minimize external distractions. If I am talking to a client or if I’m having an important conversation with my husband, I turn everything off. Screens are off. The phone is not my hand. It usually needs to be on a table somewhere else. I’m not distracted by the buzzing or whatever with the notification things it’s doing. I think an important beginning listening point is really to eliminate distractions and prepare to buckle down and tame your monkey mind. Give someone your full attention. Some of the classic skills we learn in therapy and teach new therapists is to periodically reframe what the person is saying in terms of the content and emotion. So if you’re telling me a story…I’ll say oh so you’re dog knocked over your Christmas tree? That must have been so frustrating. I’m restating both the content you told me. I’m really just making that up. I’m sure both of your dogs are really well behaved.
Carrie: They’re not. I don’t have a Christmas tree.
Sherry: There you go. Both checking in to make sure you got the content and that you understand how the person feels. One thing that is important about listening is it’s ok to be wrong. If I said oh that was must be really frustrating for you Carrie. You are like no! Actually it was really super funny and we had a great laugh about it. That’s ok. You’re just correcting my assumption about how you felt about that experience. That is a moment of meeting. That is a moment of me really understanding both what happened to you and how you felt about it.
Carrie: I’m sorry. What were you saying?
Sherry: (laughs) How do you think I will feel?
Carrie: That’s great wisdom. Is that reframing or reflecting?
Sherry: Yeah. Reflecting.
Carrie: I had a roommate that I lived with for a number of years that was working on her PhD in counseling when we lived together. I always felt like I was good practice for her.
Sherry: Did she break out the DSM and then ask you about your symptoms?
Carrie: Oh yeah. I’ve got symptoms. You recently did an episode on ZenFounder that everyone should get a therapist. Basically everybody should go find a therapist. It’s funny on the one hand but also really valid. This is a two-part question. There a stigma attached to “Oh I need to go see a therapist” and also stigma about “I need to take some medication to address some of the things going on mentally or psychologically”. I think there is less than in the past but those are still very real stigmas. I’m not going to make this a two-parter. I’ll just get to my other question in a bit. What would you say to someone who is thinking maybe something is not right? I could use some help but if I have to go see somebody or talk about it then I’m a failure as a human being or broken. What would you say to that person?
Sherry: It’s a super normative experience actually.
Carrie: Like I’m not so freakin special?
Sherry: You’re just like everybody else. You’re a little broken and a little crazy. It’s ok. Something like 25% of Americans experience depression in a given year. The rates of anxiety are equivalently high. Those are like the common colds of mental illness so to speak. I think that going to a therapist that is a good therapist and sort of gets you is really like getting a massage for your soul. It’s sort of luxurious. It’s also I think just good maintenance. So I take my car in to have the oil changed. I don’t do that myself. I don’t have time for that. There are people that help me with that. There are people that cut my hair. There are people that help me do things that I am not trained to do and not that good at. I think a therapist is comparable. You don’t have to spend 5 years in therapy, going three times a week and talking about your mother. You can find someone who sort of gets you and understands the stresses you experience in your life and can provide an objective well educated, kind, helpful alternative way of thinking about things or simply some compassion where maybe your spouse or the people in your life are sort of tired of hearing about your particular problems. I think it’s both maintenance and just good human care.
Carrie: So what I’m hearing you say is that everybody’s weird and you should get your oil changed at the mechanic and your soul massaged at a therapist.
Sherry: Yeah.
Carrie: Ok. That was my attempt at reframing.
Sherry: That was really good Carrie.
Carrie: Thank you. I appreciate that validation. I think I do probably need to work on that a little bit. You actually were sort of leading into my next question which is how do you find a therapist that gets you or can connect with you? How do you find that person? Maybe it’s like finding a WordPress developer. There are so many people. How do you find the one that’s a good fit?
Sherry: I think you just sort of look around your neighborhood. I think you want somebody that’s convenient, where it’s going to be easy for you to pop over between things if you need to. There are lots of websites that have listings of therapists according to their areas of expertise and areas where they practice. I would look for someone whose bio looks interesting to you. It’s a little bit of an art. It’s sort of like making a new friend in that once you talk to someone on the phone or email back and forth a little bit or have that introductory consultation, you’ll get a sense of whether this person is reasonable or not. You might think about how what kind of interpersonal style works well for you. Some therapists are very direct and other therapists are less direct. There are really good pros to both. There’s not just one-way of doing therapy that makes someone a good therapist. The most important thing is that they seem trustworthy and competent to you.
Carrie: Ok. It’s ok to not like him and switch if you don’t like someone.
Sherry: Totally. It’s like seeing another doctor. You know you go see your lady doctor and your like “you’re creepy”. I’m not going back to you. That’s ok. If someone is going to look at your insides, you want to make sure they don’t creep you out.
Carrie: Yes. Well this is a total random aside, but when I was younger and still living at home, my mom, my sister and I all had the same gynecologist. I don’t think I ever said the word gynecologist on my podcast before. We walked into a Mexican food restaurant to eat and there he was with his family. It was just this surreal moment of wow! That man has seen a lot of things intimately. There he is just having his chips and salsa. Wow! That’s where my mind went. So you practice yoga and you are also a yoga instructor?
Sherry: This is true.
Carrie: What role has that played in your life? My gosh! You’re a freaking PhD and speaking. You’ve got this entrepreneur husband. You’re doing a podcast. You’ve got two kids. You’ve got a lot going on. So what role does that play for you?
Sherry: I am a super big fan of yoga. Because much of like my 20s and 30s were spent doing really intensive intellectual academic things…I practiced yoga throughout that time. I started practicing when I was in graduate school (maybe when I was 25). I did a yoga teacher training maybe three years ago. I made it just really a much deeper part of my life. I practice pretty much every day (whether at a studio or at home). I think for me it has really helped me just get out of my head and out of all of the big thoughts that swirl around my brain all the time. It helped me practice breathing and be a little more of an embodied human instead of this thought monster all the time. I don’t know if anybody is going to know what I am talking about.
Carrie: We’re with you.
Sherry: Do you know a thought monster or two? I think the physiological pieces of yoga the breath work alone…having quiet spaces in my life and in my day. I’m also an introvert. I have two kids and they talk all the time. They never stop talking. I need some little moments in my life that are quiet where my mind is clear. That’s been yoga for me. I enjoy a physical practice (like an Ashtanga practice) which are lots of headstands, handstands and fun tricks. I think the bottom line is just that being able to sit quietly and breathe for a little bit of the day. One of the things I actually have done is integrate a lot of yoga into the psychotherapy practice that I do. I have found it to be so helpful talking to people about all of their stress and anxiety. So much of that exists in your body; the way that your heart beats or the way that your muscles hold tension when you’re stressed out. Whether or not you do all those sort of tricks and chanting and all the other stuff that goes along with yoga where the quiet breathing and simple stretching is one of the most powerful tools in the world to help people to calm down and recenter.
Carrie: So you’re doing yoga with someone in a session?
Sherry: Yeah. I have. I’ve done yoga groups for people who have post traumatic stress disorder. It’s a therapy group where people are learning how to calm down their bodies after trauma.
Carrie: Very cool!
Sherry: One the things that I did at the MicroConf talk a couple of years ago is make everybody (like 200 people) close their laptops and do deep breathing for a couple of minutes. I think the only reason I get invited back is because I’m married to the founder. It was kind of a fun experiment.
Carrie: That’s fantastic. Since you do yoga most days, do you ever struggle to carve out that time? Do you feel that…I know that I need to do yoga, but I really don’t feel like doing yoga…or is it like you cannot wait to get that space?
Sherry: Oh! It’s totally a struggle! Yeah I have to make myself do it sometimes. I try to practice first thing in the morning, which is optimal for me just because of the way that our life is set up. By the end of the day I am just so tired. Sometimes I just like sleep in my yoga clothes, roll out of bed and run to the studio. I try to make it as easy on myself as I can. It’s a discipline like everything else…like writing or podcasting. There are just some days where I don’t want to do this.
Carrie: Ok. So you’re normal which is what I just gathered.
Sherry: Yeah. I’m normal.
Carrie: Despite appearances, you’re not superhuman. You could just put a yoga mat right beside your bed. So then if you’re sleeping in your yoga clothes, you just need to roll out onto your mat.
Sherry: Yeah. If I’m practicing really early in the morning, it helps me to go to a studio. Then I can’t just fall sleep on my mat. That’s frowned upon. So yeah.
Carrie: I was trying to help you be more efficient.
Sherry: Thank you. If only I was that disciplined.
Carrie: Where are you next? I know you mentioned MicroConf. You’re sort of in the WordPress arena by proxy. You’re probably not going to be hanging out at WordCamps but where are you in terms of events and so forth?
Sherry: I will be speaking at MicroConf which in Vegas in April. I’m scheming a little bit. I’m trying to get to some things this spring but nothing is official yet. I literally sent an email to someone this morning. I was like what if I just come and crash your conference? Would that be ok?
Carrie: I love it!
Sherry: We’ll see. I’m trying to hustle. I’m not really sure what that speaking schedule will look like. It feels like it’s still kind of emerging and being put together. I’ll be out there is much as I can. It’s something I love doing. I love being in a room with people. It’s been really great for my consulting and therapy practice to spend a lot of time hanging out with with freelancers and founders and sort of get the vibe of the community.
Carrie: That’s awesome! Where can people find out about these mysterious conferences where you may or may not be appearing?
Sherry: The things I’m trying to finagle? I am getting a new website for Christmas. I’m so excited! I do have SherryWalling.com. It looks crappy right now but it won’t always look crappy, so don’t judge me. I’m also @Zenfounder on Twitter. People can follow up with me there. I’m always chatting about what I’m doing or trying to do on the podcast. If you’re really that committed, you can listen to the podcast too.
Carrie: Awesome. For everybody tuning in, I’ll have those links up in the show notes over at officehours.fm. By the way, if you’re listening to this and you’re not already a part of the office hours community, go to officehours.fm/community.There’s a link there for you to join the free slack channel where you can talk about episodes or talk about whatever is on your mind. There are some great folks hanging out in there. Sherry? I appreciate you coming on and sharing with us and giving it a little bit of levity today. With that, I hope to see you online or somewhere in the world soon. Thanks so much.
Sherry: Thank you Carrie. It’s been really fun.